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Of what is this 'evidence'?

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What do you feel you have to learn about fair trial? Do you feel that fair trial matters?

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Earth: Question: At base, dose the Bordenkircher holding make sense?
Loc Muinne: It makes sense for prosecutors to want this bargaining chip, but it's incredibly cruel
Nilfgaard: practically no. i think the logic makes sense but it's naive because it misestimates prosecutorial priorities/incentives
Onderon: Stewart has a very optimistic outlook on how plea bargaining works honestly, I think there's a bit of conflation between ideals and reality going on there.
Ahch-To: I believe the better question is whether we agree with the holding and the reasoning. My answer is no. I think a situation like this "makes sense" to prosecutors, but even then probably not across the board
Ahch-To: @ Blackeye I agree completely
Ahch-To: @ Venus I agree
Milky Way: Agreed with Venus
Nilfgaard: Seconded blackeye. The decision assumes prosecutors dont get promoted the higher percentage of people they lock up for significant time.
Ahch-To: or that there is an imbalance in the reasons given to each at trial
Onderon: Yeah I think on paper a structure like plea bargaining could work the way the court says cause, hey, alternative modes of resolution are something that sound good and we want to encourage different ways of handling things, especially in ways that would equalize the power dynamic. That's just not what really happens imo though
Ahch-To: or that there is an issue of getting a defense counsel who can help you navigate a trial
Onderon: Is there anyone who agreed with the holding or at least preferred it to the dissent? You obv don't need to speak up when we do the actual talking in Zoom if you don't wanna but it seems like we've all got similar stances, which isn't the best for this sorta thing
Earth: Is there a way to keep the efficiencies of plea bargains for all parties while also addressing the inherent unfairness of plea bargaining as it exists today?
Nilfgaard: yeah ahch-to, particularly disturbed about the line in the opinion that the prosecutor and defense "possess relatively equal bargaining power". like no. defendant has risk of being labelled criminal, or being stripped of liberty.
Ahch-To: I don't believe any of the crimes merit a life sentence
Ahch-To: @ Earth: follow the Marshall model and hold the crime at what was offered at the plea bargaining stage (at the very least)
Ahch-To: @ Nilfgaard exactly and if it's a "three-strike" case it can be life WITHOUT the possibility of parole
Nilfgaard: also worried about plea bargaining where there are multiple defendants who could be witnesses in other trial
Earth: @Ahch-To, so would you limit it both ways? In other words, forbid the prosecutor from reducing the defendant's charge?
Onderon: Would prosecutors be incentivized to actually bother with plea bargaining under the Marshall model?
Milky Way: I also feel incredibly uneasy with the court's admission that "this Court has necessarily accepted as constitutionally legitimate the simple reality that the prosecutor's interest at the bargaining table is to persuade the defendant to forgo his right to plead not guilty" - naming outright that the goal of prosecutors is to try to prevent "not guilty" pleads even from those who want to assert their right to a trial
Ahch-To: @ Earth No, if during the course of the trial there ultimately wasn't enough evidence to prove a crime...they could reduce it. but upcharging is a huge issue and a realistic bar for folks not going to trial.
Nilfgaard: onderon- clearly not as much as they are now, but at least they might bring fairer charges and if the defendant wants to waive jury trials because they are guilty than so be it, but not if they are innocent and look at the options and take the risk averse deal
Ahch-To: @ Onderon, yes. going to trial is still costly and time consuming
Ahch-To: @ milky way RT
Onderon: Yeah fair enough, I guess it's more of a weighing mechanism then. @Nilfgaard/Ahch
Ahch-To: @ Nilfgaard exactly, especially with these things like enhancements adding even more time and increasing that number
Earth: @Milky Way, if you're a prosecutor who believes the defendant is factually guilty, why would you not want them to plead guilty?
Nilfgaard: If you were charged with a crime that carried a 10 year maximum sentence at trial and you were innocent, but the prosecution offered you 3 years, would you take it?
Ahch-To: @ Nilfgaard what race am I? (let's not act like this doesn't have an impact) Am I young? do I have money?
Ahch-To: what's my educational status?
Ahch-To: where did I commit the crime and against whom?
Ahch-To: Basically, do I have a realistic shot of being a sympathetic defendant
Earth: More importantly, what do you mean by innocent? Am I not the person the prosecution thinks I am, or do I just have a justification or an excuse?
Nilfgaard: all fair questions that do play into the analysis, but to reduce speculation, lets just do it subjectively because we can speak for ourselves
Earth: Or was no crime committed by any actor?
Nilfgaard: And to Earth, lets assume that its a misidentification case (wasnt thinking about this either)
Milky Way: @Earth - I'm thinking of for instance in the MPRE that we are explicitly taught that defs have the right to make prosecutors prove every element of the charge in a trial. Perhaps my uneasy feeling is from the fact that prosecutors would rather try to persuade a not guilty charge and incarcerate as many people as possible based on their subjective reasonings of guilt instead of just acknowledging that true due process means going through the whole process.
Nilfgaard: I think you'd have to consider taking that deal and thats how A) more people go to prison (innocent or guilty) and B) more innocent people are labelled felons for their whole life
Milky Way: @Earth - like the point of the prosecutor's role is to incarcerate people. So yeah, they will want to do what they can to get a defendant to plead guilty. But do we really want to keep upholding that prosecutor's interest as just "why wouldn't they?" instead of "why should they?"
Earth: Let's come back to Zoom in a minute?
Onderon: When are we supposed to do that? Think I missed it.
Ahch-To: I missed it too
Ahch-To: I think we know who Earth is now lol
Earth: Hearing from friend in Nesson's group. He just took them back, so let's go.
Milky Way: Gaia and Anthony you are our heroes
Onderon: For real though