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Wolf 359: Threads can work IF there is mutual respect among classmates. If no one believes each other to be the strawman of their actual beliefs, then this could be productive.
Ryloth: threads is great, dont let the snowflakes ruin it. we're all gonna be lawyers and we're big boys and girls and we can have a thick skin and handle it
Titan: Threads need to be more focused, but they can work
Asuras: I feel like threads is interesting exactly because it lets people express viewpoints that they wouldn't feel comfortable expressing in class- for whatever reason.
Celestis: Perhaps threads can work with Prof. Nesson knowing the identities of students so at lease there can be some accountability for harmful or abusive speech but will allow the robust conversation that threads is all about
Kerack: Threads works
Betelgeuse: @blackeye, i dont think thats the problem – idk anybody being a horrible person on threads
Wolf 359: Who is using harmful or abusive speech?
Asuras: Hard disagree with having him know the identities. I feel like that defeats the anonymity purpose
Milky Way: I like threads. I do wish Professor Nesson included speakers/readings with perspectives that differed from his own
Kerack: Agree Gors Velen
Kerack: Let's just have a substatntive discussion
Kerack: It will be better here than in clss for sure
Milky Way: For example, it is extremely unlikely that he would bring on anyone to contest the BLM narrative peddled to us last class
Titan: Constantly devolving into political banter that is based on layers of presuppositions is not helpful
Celestis: Yeah I agree but in case anyone does use harmful sppech
Ross 154: I love threads. I agree there needs to be mutual respect.
Asuras: I haven't seen this class devolve into politics....
Celestis: Yeah I would love to see someone with an opposing narrative from what we heard last class
Betelgeuse: I think the actual problem lies in the fact that some classmates don't practice emotional intelligence when other students are speaking. So like if I present an unpopular view it might be because I want to learn more about it – not because I believe it. I think people feel silenced when classmates groan or laugh or make faces at points raised in class
Loc Grim: I love threads and love to read through and see thoughts on both sides of the aisle. I feel as if threads is like social media: it needs to be read with a filter. But, there are very worthwhile arguments made that I would be remiss had I not heard them.
Kerack: Yeah there should be a respectful alternative to the BLM perspective
Titan: The first one did, and the debate ones have constantly gotten derailed
Celestis: Yep and those worthwhile arguments wont happen in class
Milky Way: Agreed. I found it disheartening that no one was willing to contest the speaker last class. Threads is the only way people are willing to speak out
Whirlpool: I think part of why we're in this polarized situation, is Americans, as a culture, have avoided difficult discourse in favor of "never talk religion or politics" politeness. What happened, is that as a culture, Americans just constantly amplified their partisan voices louder and louder solely into those echo chambers of places who shared their religion and politics
Polaris: I don't think threads is the issue. The concern about people feeling as if they cannot speak up in class is concerning, but it is also unfair to expect people to not display their contempt for conservative ideas right now. It's a symptom of where we are at as a country. They idea that someone is going to get cancelled for expressing a genuinely held conservative viewpoint is just not a real fear. We do need to make sure people get a chance to explain themselves fully though. I think the fear is in being misunderstood.
Celestis: Polaris that is totally wrong
Jupiter: as a conservative who has made several close liberal friends here at HLS. I would never voice those same opinions in class. Fact is that threads and intimate conversations are the only safe places for dialogue right now. Not worth the reputation hit to actually say my views
Wolf 359: Polaris is wrong. But I respect the opinion
Venus: I agree that people should be able to try on ideas in an academic environment. If a classroom isn't supposed to be where you can suss out what you believe, then where is? Moreover, it forces you to defend/think critically about your own ideas and (maybe?) change them with new information.
Celestis: People get cancelled for anything. There might be an argument that that is okay (the free market at work, etc.) but to say that it doesn't happen is false
Kerack: Censorship is a huge issue in this country. Just witness the recent Twitter, Facebook, etc. censoring of the New York Post (and the media blackout on it). I think the Hunter Biden story is irrelevant and silly. But the idea that media elites want to control what we can and cannot think/discuss is intolerable.
Kerack: If you cannot speak and think freely, free society is over.
Dakara: I've very much enjoyed using threads and engaging with you all through this method. It allows more voices to be heard than over Zoom. I agree, people should behave respectfully...and in my experience with Threads so far, everyone has
Vega: threads is the best thing that has happened to me at HLS
Loc Grim: I also wonder if the privileged feel that they are not represented at all or if they just don't voice their opinions in this class. So they do take seats in the courts and they do have a president on their side right now and they do have strong organizations but they just don't speak here.
Titan: I think a lot of the complaints about cancel culture are people getting upset their views are disliked
Jupiter: @Polaris I respect your view but conservatives get cancelled every day, especially in hollywood
Celestis: yep. although twitter and facebook are private and should be able to do what they want, the selective censorship is destroying free society
Titan: Which, by the way, is not new
Whirlpool: I think the conservative uproar over the hunter biden laptop is peak hypocrisy / wanting to have cake and eat it too. If you're gonna be the free market / anti-regulation party, can't get upset when the winners in the free market shut down some bullshit
Ryloth: the meta discussion is currently about 6* as popular as the contempt discussion
Deimos: I think the fair trial class actually demonstrated that threads works. without threads, we would have never known that people with conservative or more moderate viewpoints felt completely silenced in our class and were legit afraid that any comment or question that wasn't liberal enough would lead to them being cancelled or being labelled a racist/sexist/etc by peers. I didn't realize people felt that way. as for solutions to that problem? idk...
Wolf 359: Lets stop with the hunter biden stuff
Celestis: It isn't about being privileged. it is about actually receiving a well rounded education and not just hearing the same viewpoints peddled over and over
Titan: I agree we should table the Hunter Biden thing
Polaris: I guess this comes down to what we're calling a "conservative" idea. If you say that the slaves should never have been freed, then yes, you're getting cancelled. if you say that Roe v. Wade should be overturned because it's really an issue for the Legislature or the states, probably not.
Jupiter: @deimos it's every class at HLS not just Fair Trial
Celestis: Wolf 359 i couldn't care less about hunter biden stuff and they are probably a hoax but there have been many much less credible stories that Twitter let go unchecked. Again, you can argue that that is okay but don't say it doesn't happen
Wolf 359: Nobody is saying slaves shouldnt be freed
Vega: @wolf 359 why would you even say something like that
Jupiter: @Polaris again disagree, it would not be wise to say Roe v Wade was wrong for any reason in a law school class
Wolf 359: Thats the point- conflation of opinions is getting outrageous
Betelgeuse: feel like we talk too much about whether people are silenced or not and not enough about why people feel silenced or trying to create an environment when nobody feels silenced – that environment shouldn't be hard (respect, emotional intelligence, and not personally attacking people i think does the trick)
Asuras: Disagree Polaris. There are a lot of less controversial things than Roe even that I'd never say in class
Polaris: Wolf, I agree. Give me an example of a reasonable conservative opinion that someone might justifiably not be willing to air out in class. Not saying they don't exist, just want a better idea of what we're talking about here.
Polaris: Same to Asuras
Titan: Again, I once again want to mention that large parts of society getting upset at you for voicing unpopular opinions is not new. I do think we should be more charitable to people expressing contrary opinions but let's not buy into this theory that the things going on are new
Kerack: Polaris: the notion that BLM is a harmful organization.
Kerack: A position which many prominent blacks hold by the way.
Jupiter: not sure what people will say in the breakout rooms
Asuras: Polaris: Voting 3rd party in the election
Whirlpool: Harmful how
Vega: BLM is neither harmful nor an organization
Celestis: Polaris, say someone spoke against affirmative action, not from a racist viewpoint but from a defensible viewpoint, they would get cancelled as racist
Titan: I do agree that people should be more charitable to others with contrary ideas
Whirlpool: BLM IS an organization, even has three founders, with titles, and a website
Celestis: with millions of dollars of organization
Whirlpool: https://blacklivesmatter.com/
Kerack: BLM is a foundation. Foundations are organizations. BLM is an organizations. BLM rioters routinely destroy cities. Destroying cities is harmful. BLM is harmful.
Celestis: *organizational donations
Titan: I wish we could channel the energy in these discussion into specific subjects and not get sidetracked or bring up other issues
Whirlpool: contrast to Antifa, which is an IDEA that violence is necessary against those propagating facist ideas
Titan: Like, why are we talking about BLM right now
Vega: BLM is a social movement. The same way the civil rights movement was, the same way the anti-vietnam movement was. It's a popular, decentralized movement
Kerack: Follow the thread Titan.
Venus: The destruction of property is a rational and logical response to the subjugation of a large percentage of our population.
Polaris: Celestis, that's a tough one at Harvard, I'll give you that. Because you're brining up a point that in all likelihood would literals remove people from the conversation. So it's like, if I had my way, you wouldn't be here.
Titan: If we would stay on topic more we wouldn't get into all these separate factual arguments
Kerack: Someone asked for positions that are reasonable but someobody would not feel comfortable saying in class. BLM is about as strong an example as you could give.
Titan: Ok but lets focus on the overall discussion and not then devolve into this bickering over what BLM is; if we are going to do that, it should have it's own thread
Titan: I'm not against talking about controversial things but let's keep it organized
Kerack: Sure. Follow the thread though. Someone suggested that the position does not work as an example because it is not actually reasonable hence necessitating those putting it forward to defend it as reasonable and thus eligible for purposes of the conversation
Asuras: I bet everyone can think of a lot of examples though. the point was that there are many many things that people aren't comfortable saying
Betelgeuse: Is it the professor's responsibility to voice unpopular opinions as his own in order to facilitate class discussion?
Betelgeuse: Or for him to assign people to defend/advocate for unpopular opinions so as to create an environment where all opinions are thoroughly fleshed out?
Whirlpool: I dont think its a professor's responsibility to do as much, but by doing so the professor may provide a more thought provoking learning environment, potentially at his own expense....like an attorney held in criminal contempt by zealously advocating for her client