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OP: What limits opportunity in today's America
Messier 83: over powered
Ghelibol: Socioeconomic status and the divide in education associated with that
Ghelibol: well firstly about the divide in education
Whirlpool: I would say race and religion are big limitations. Especially being in minorities.
Abydos: In today's America, the ability to be hired for a job or get an education (or more specifically, difficulties in this regard) limit opportunity.
Earth: institutionalized and informal segregation
Ghelibol: public schools are tax funded, so schools in poorer areas have less funding and so often aren't as equitable or "good" an education as those in richer areas
Messier 83: Segregation of cities limits opportunities for people to meet diverse people
Klucz: Some employers may be inclined to not hire or fire ppl of a different race / religion
Messier 83: It also causes people in minority neighborhoods to have less opportunity because people put less good institutions there
Jedha: Segregation limits the range of things that people can experience.
Milky Way: In America today, our culture creates laziness which leads to social immobility. People are no longer motivated to work towards increasing their status. The few people that do manage to increase status are the few who had the drive to do so.
Ghelibol: also, student loans and unpaid internships
Luyten 726-8B: Effects from things like slavery that carried over into more recent issues like redlining now carry over in the present day when it comes to preventing POC and those in poverty to be segregated from those that have wealthy families, as they cannot get jobs or escape poverty
Earth: public schools are paid for by property tax, which leads to disproportionate education. Poorer neighborhoods have less funded schools, because they don't pay much in property tax.
Ghelibol: it's not fair for some students to have to work multiple jobs along with their studies to pay for tuition, whereas others don't have to work at all and can just focus on their academics because their parents pay
Ghelibol: even if they do get into the same university
Ghelibol: even before that it's difficult for people in poorer areas to get into said university because of unpaid internships, oppertunities for a good resume, quality of education, etc
Milky Way: Government handouts and bail-outs of poorer areas ruin the economies and the individual's drive to succeed. If people can survive without working hard, getting a good education, and getting a good job, there is no reason for them to innovate or create.
Ghelibol: jupiter, what about the individuals who do have a drive to succeed but face many, many more obstacles than their wealthier counterparts?
Luyten 726-8B: So your proposition is instead to *not* give resources to poor people and keep them poor?
Luyten 726-8B: ^ for Jupiter
Ghelibol: wait jupiter or me lol
Luyten 726-8B: For Jupiter sorry
Ghelibol: kk just wanted to clarify
Ghelibol: OH wait ik what you mean
Ghelibol: i thought you meant something else nvm
Ghelibol: jupiter, giving resources to poor people that help them succeed isn't ruining their drive to succeed, it's giving them the oppertunity to follow through on that drive
Milky Way: For example, Washington D.C. has the highest spending per student in the United States and yet continues to fail to educate and advance its students. The government bailing out people is not the answer to get them to succeed. In addition, it is logical that it would be harder for a poor person to become rich than a rich person to become rich because the rich person is already rich.
Luyten 726-8B: Well, Washington D.C. is not considered a state meaning it does not receive representation, and thus will get less federal funding than necessary for everything across the board.
Ghelibol: spending per student is not equivalent to quality of education. and what do you mean by failure to educate and advance? DC isn't a state as well so it
Ghelibol: it's kind of different
Ghelibol: sorry sent too early
Luyten 726-8B: I can assume I know who Jupiter is, but the notion that poor people are poor because of their mindset or because they "don't have the drive to work harder" is unequivocally false
Ghelibol: so you say that the government "bailing out" people is not the answer. what do you propose IS the answer? and what do you mean by bailing out? you have a lot of buzzwords but not a lot of explanation
Ghelibol: by bailing out do you mean gov programs that give more oppertunity/better schooling for poorer areas?
Luyten 726-8B: ^ Especially when "bailing out" clearly hasn't *actually* "bailed out" anyone, since more than 10% of America is in poverty
Ghelibol: and could you clarify what you mean by programs "ruining drive to succeed"
Luyten 726-8B: And on top of that students (children / barely adults) are consistently worried about paying off gigantic education debt; if we were to erase that debt, it's not going to "ruin someone's drive to succeed," it's going to do the opposite, and give them the inspiration to go after their dreams, as they don't have this enormous burden looming on their backs.
Ghelibol: exactly. giving people without oppertunities the same oppertunities as richer people wouldn't crush their drive, it would give them the ability to realize that drive
Ghelibol: if eliminating student debt/gov programs/etc is ruining drive, then i guess rich people who have all those oppertunities from wealth have their drives ruined as well
Luyten 726-8B: People in poverty aren't worried about not getting out because "it's the wrong mindset," it is a true fact for millions of Americans that they will never escape poverty because the system is built against them.
Earth: why do corporations keep getting bailouts? we know they only use it to cut a few more people loose and buy back their stocks. The executives increase their earnings by a large margin while the normal workers are continually laid off.
Milky Way: Our culture teaches that everyone is equal and should be treated as such. Rather than allow parents to choose what school their children should go to, we pump money into a failing public school system which fails on almost every metric when compared to the rest of the world. Certain groups, often immigrants, quickly rise up from the same socioeconomic situations as others who have stayed at the bottom for 100s of years. Throwing money at the problem has been shown to solve nothing. Bail-outs don't help either. Giving away free college education and cancelling debt encourages individuals to get useless degrees which don't help themselves or society.
Luyten 726-8B: Exactly — in reality, these massive corporations (whether it be Amazon, Apple, etc.) are the ones getting "bailed out" when they don't need it; not the impoverished.
Luyten 726-8B: Oop sent late
Earth: or even boing
Earth: boeing oops
Earth: and goldman sachs
Luyten 726-8B: "Throwing money at the problem has been shown to solve nothing. Bail-outs don't help either" — some countries that aren't America might have an issue with this statement 😬
Ghelibol: Jupiter, how can you use these blanket statements about bail outs when people in poverty aren't the ones recieving said bail outs?
Milky Way: By bailing out companies, 10s or even 100s of thousands of jobs are preserved. By bailing out individuals, 1 individual gains something at a significantly higher cost. In an ideal world, we would give everybody a billion dollars but unfortunately, we don't live in that world.
Luyten 726-8B: We don't live in that world because the government refuses to provide money to the needy because it disadvantages them.
Earth: @Jupiter thats in theory. In practice, the companies don't actually save the jobs
Ghelibol: And Jupiter, you aknowledge that public schools in their current form aren't a sufficient or helpful system, and that we continue to pump money into them. As far as I can see, we constantly make cuts to education and fund it via taxes which furthers the divide. What do you think we should do to solve that issue??
Luyten 726-8B: Well, we do live in that world; other countries do. Just not in America because helping people is considered taboo.
Milky Way: Every country which has attempted to give large sums of money to individuals untied to work as an issue of national policy has failed. Venezuela has given billions of its currency to people but a billion is worth less than a cent.
Luyten 726-8B: It's not about giving large sums of money; it's about providing programs that relieve the burden that millions of Americans are concerned about
Ghelibol: Jupiter, you realize that public schools in their current form are "failing", and yet you won't support the "bail outs" that would fix those problems? As Brenna said, other countries that have these programs are succeeding. You yourself admitted that compared to the rest of the world our schools were "failing". So what do you propose to do, other than implementing the programs that other countries use successfully, to fix this?
Luyten 726-8B: I still will never understand why people nowadays feel the need to suck up to these corporations as if the corporations care about them
Earth: FREE HEALTHCARE FOR ALL
Ghelibol: I mean, there is the humanization of corporations not even just in the law but in speech too
Luyten 726-8B: based* haha
Earth: we are the only developed country without it
Ghelibol: We speak like they're people
Ghelibol: it's funny how people living in the US can justify the absence of programs that are standard literally everywhere else
Luyten 726-8B: iTs RaDiCaL!!!!!
Luyten 726-8B: Different idea = commie
Milky Way: Corporations are forced to care about them. They are their workers. They pay them. If that isn't enough, I don't know what is. Corporations are made of people and should be treated as such. The public school system is so fundamentally broken that it either must be built from the ground up or completely privatized.
Ghelibol: bUt vEnEzUeLa
Ghelibol: Corporations are forced to care about them?? Corporations do not care about their workers
Ghelibol: Corporations are not people
Ghelibol: Well they shouldn't be
Ghelibol: nobody was suggesting communism lolll
Milky Way: They do care about their workers. They pay them and many give health benefits to entice the workers to stay with them.
Ghelibol: end student loans
Luyten 726-8B: Jupiter — do you know how awful working conditions are at Amazon? To say Amazon cares about their workers is hilarious at the least
Earth: or at least someone should be able to pay off their student loans with a minimum wage job for 4 years that they're in college
Earth: @Jupiter... smh
Ghelibol: Most of workers in one of Amazon's departments quit after a few months because of how horrifying the condiitons are
Earth: they dont have any breaks so they pee in bottles on the job
Luyten 726-8B: Well they could use the bathroom (if they don't mind risking their job and thus life and thus potentially their kids' lives)
Luyten 726-8B: Amazon: Use the bathroom at your own risk 👍