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Final Class Feedback [12-01-20]

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Of what is this 'evidence'?

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Roman Catholic Diocese v. Cuomo

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Feedback [11-30-20]

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Thanksgiving Thread

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Peremptory Challenges [11-23-2020]

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Feedback [11-17-20]

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Your questions, doubts and concerns about confrontation and cross as core jury process.

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Feedback November 10

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Feedback [11-09-20]

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Discussion Group 2 [11-9-2020]

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Discussion Group 1 [11-9-2020]

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Election Night

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George Fisher Caves [11-03-2020]

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Group 1 [11-03-2020]

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Group 2 [11-03-2020]

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Group 3 [11-03-2020]

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Feedback 11-2-2020

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Feedback 10-27-2020

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Discussion 10-27-2020

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Feedback 10-26-2020

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Hypothetical 10-19-20

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Feedback 10-20-2020

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Feedback 10-19-20

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Surveillance 10-19-20

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Feedback October 13, 2020

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REVIEW - October 13, 2020. Please offer questions and concerns.

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Feedback Oct 6, 2020 - violence of discussion for some

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Feedback October 6, 2020

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Feedback Oct 5, 2020 Fair

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Gatecrasher - Who Wins?

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Blue Bus

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Conjunction --In what order should we decide the elements of the alleged crime?

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Prison Yard - Can WE prosecute all of them?

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Feedback [09-29-20]

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Would you be interested in joining together in threads while watching the Trump-Biden debate?

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feedback sept 28

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What is your biggest fear going forward?

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BIAS (in judgmen)t

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Feedback #1

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racism - anti-racism

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what is your passion?

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What do you feel you have to learn about fair trial? Do you feel that fair trial matters?

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Give Thanks

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OP: While driving late at night on a dark, two-lane road, a person confronts an oncoming bus speeding down the center line of the road in the opposite direction. In the glare of the headlights, the person sees that the vehicle is a bus, but he cannot otherwise identify it. He swerves to avoid a collision, and his car hits a tree. The bus speeds past without stopping. The injured person later sues the Blue Bus Company. He proves, in addition to the facts stated above, that the Blue Bus Company owns and operates 80% of the buses that run on the road where the accident occurred. Can he win?
Dione: Yes. Assuming Blue Bus cannot prove it was not one of their buses, he should win. His money damages should be reduced by 20 percent.
Venus: He is making a case against society not against a specific person.
Venus: or company
Wolf 359: isn't there an 80% chance the company is guilty. Wouldn't we prefer an injured plaintiff recover rather than a guilty bus company get off without punishment?
Dione: Yes Wolf, we would!
Uranus: I completely agree with arcturus, in a civil case this probabilistic evidence should be sufficient. This is probably more reliable than a judgment based on softer evidence which the jury is 51% convinced by
Hyperion: I don't think this is enough info to be more probable than not
Triangulum: yes, i agree there's a clear difference between civil and criminal cases here. Plus, the showing that the Blue Bus company owns 80% of the buses is refutable - the company can still prove it wasn't one of their buses.
Carcano: I agree with Wolf and Uranus this should be sufficient for civil
Hyperion: What if there is one guy in the city with a blue bus, who drives it for 16 hours a day, while all other blue buses are only driven for 1 hour a day.
Hochebuz: I agree with @Triangulum that there's still an opportunity for the Blue Bus Company to prove they weren't operating a bus on that road at the time of the crash or something. Letting the plaintiff win without hearing a rebuttal to that evidence would be hasty, despite the probabilities at play
Hyperion: but the general fact of how many buses are in the city has nothing to do with the particular incident of the accident
Mercury: I see the urge to say yes with Arcturus and Wolf based on the power imbalance between these specific parties, but I am inclined to say no on the hypothetical if parties are of equal privilege. There is no SPECIFIC evidence that the blue bus company was the one that hit even though it is generally an 80% chance is well over a preponderance. Lots and lots of other factors matter other than bus ownership, including routes, route times, training, length of shift. I dont think we want people to be sued because on just one dimension they have over 50% of the possibility to have committed teh wrong, it is a bad burden shifting exercise. I think it should be introduced in a larger fact pattern but not dispositive
Venus: Do we care more about a plaintiff winning or about determining what happened.
Ariel: Can we give her 80% of her damages?
Rinde: Assuming there are no other variables and the blue bus company is on the roads at all time while making up 80% of the bus fleet, I'm still not happy with ruling for the plaintiff. This just seems like a windfall for the P. The company can't be liable for all accidents at night simply because they make up 80% of the fleet.
Triton: Yes, he can and should win - for reasons explained above. In this case, the burden shifts to the company to prove that this was not one of their buses.
Felucia: No, although it is an unfortunate story, there needs to be evidence it was the Blue Bus company.
Ganymede: @felucia, why though? By way more than a preponderance of the evidence (80%) plaintiff has proven her case
Ganymede: why isn't that enough?
Ganymede: it feels like our avoidance of these probabilistic judgments is because we believe that if we were given something where we could actually exercise our judgment on, we could become sure (or something approximating sure). just seems like us overestimating our capabilities. i'd take an actual, provable 80% over a jury's subjective 51%
Tethys: this hypo is based on a real case (Smith v. Rapid Transit) in Massachusetts and the court ruled for the bus company, stating that the probability the bus was owned by defendant did not meet preponderance oft he evidence standard. just food for thought