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Beauclair: Hi everyone
Arcturus: This case is crazy
Kaer Trolde: hello world
Felucia: this case is depressing
Sunflower: what a sad story
Kaer Trolde: hello world
Neptune: Yeah that swan case was nuts
Proxima Centauri: I just wanna binge 60 minutes now
Dakara: Why don't they just let the defense counsel (or a specialized defense counsel even) cross examine the little girl away from the defendant?
Beauclair: What is really the other side of the story
Neptune: Proxima lol
Felucia: i want to puke
Athos: Was the worker who made the original allegation sued later by the family?
Death Star: Dakara - good point
Kaer Trolde: I couldn't help myself, and researched the circumstances and aftermath of this case
Beauclair: How could they do this, what is the justification.
Phobos: what did you find
Neptune: Yeah enlighten us. Im curious
Kaer Trolde: apparently there was a bit of a salem witch trials atmosphere in the US in the early 90s regarding child molestation accusations
Mars: Hello world
Felucia: that CBS news link gives some pretty good info
Sunflower: some people care more about the appearance of justice more than justice itself and they delude themselves into believing their own falsified justifications
Arcturus: They're still in prison?
Neptune: that prosecuter was something else. Dont believe that she actually believed herself for a second
Kaer Trolde: the daughter, all grown up, said it never happened, and the dad died under suspicious circumstances in his 50s
Felucia: they served 3 years
Neptune: Sunflower well said
Phobos: Ashiq I still see you on video...
Proxima Centauri: are we supposed to discuss the Craig case or the 60 min case
Felucia: now register as sex offenders everywhere
Dakara: Iapetus, that's true. Huge amount of allegations of demonic worship and abuse. But what's the next bout of hysteria that will sweep people up?
Mars: I worry about having a child be cross-examined by attorneys
Neptune: Jedha agreed
Altair: I propose we hold the rest of class in threads space
Arcturus: Yes it seemed like the prosecutor used her "confidence in the jury" to distance herself from actually taking a position on guilt
Proxima Centauri: I'm ok with the Craig girl being interviewed in the other room
Dakara: Jedha, couldn't there be counsel that specializes in this?
Neptune: Children definitely create memories
Neptune: BEing interviewd but not by counsel. Maybe a child social worker
Athos: It's interesting to see the daycare owner appeal to the holdings of the courts, over having to face possibly admitting she may have been wrong
Sunflower: it is true that a child when cross examined can maybe be said to say anything
Kaer Trolde: I think this reminds me of the making a murderer cooerced confession of the low IQ kid
Beauclair: The child can't imagine that. They would have to be taught it.
Sunflower: yeah having a social worker in the room would help but not just any social worker. idk how to vet that
Mars: Dakara I like your thought process; was just thinking it should be some neutral type of counsel examining the alleged victim in front of the judge
Death Star: Note that part of the issue here was that they did not know about the details of the daycare owner till after trial. That is evidence that could have come in even after Craig.
Kaer Trolde: there were no marbles in the house...
Arcturus: Yes but having the child not testify at all seems like a way greater miscarriage of justice
Phobos: within an hour on the job she gets a "confession" !?
Vartburg: I don't think the child's trauma from testifying should be given as much weight.
Neptune: Ariel exactly. The whole story made no sense
OP: @Vartburg would you have the child testify in open court?
Altair: for reference, since this is relevant to some of what was said in the video:
Neptune: Seems liek a prosecutor just wanted a promotion or her name in the news
Athos: I found interesting the claim made by the prosecutor about not believing that children have a predisposition to lie, when the elements of the case suggest that it was the adults, not the child, who may have lied
Felucia: i just wanna puke
Felucia: sorry i know im not contributing anything
Phobos: "Vartburg: I don't think the child's trauma from testifying should be given as much weight" -- I disagree
Neptune: Felucia you aren't on camera. Go ahead
Dakara: Felucia, why so nauseous?
Sunflower: there is such a negative stigma around sex offenders and alleged sex offenders it may bias people into believing the accusations. rule 403 or something
Geonosis: Attend to who is gunning, who is lurking, even as you do it. Ask yourself, are you listenting?
Arcturus: She reframed it as a predisposition to lie but that wasn't the point at issue. It's just a predisposition to agree with adults or to be persuaded. The children were 3, they definitely weren't lying on purpose
Sunflower: yeah why the incentives around prosecutors are all wrong ganymede
Felucia: i dont have the lawyer gene honestly i cant imagine hearing cases like this on a daily basis
Neptune: Arcturus exactly. Not to lie but to just say yes
Alderaan: Attend to who is gunning, who is lurking, even as you do it. Ask yourself, are you listenting?
Athos: Arcturus, good point - thanks!
Kaer Trolde: again, im just gonna say, how is a 3 year old different than a mentally handicapped person like in "Making a Murderer" (brendan dassey)
Neptune: Alderaan huh?
Dakara: Anybody think the Swan parents are guilty?
Neptune: mentally handicapped person presumably has somewhat of a mature understanding of the world. Not so much a 3 year old
Arcturus: 3 is just absurdly young to be expected to competently understand you're causing someone of something terrible at all.
Neptune: Dakara. no way to know but likely not
Earth: I don't think it matters whether or not they're guilty -- the problem is the process, not the result.
Beauclair: Idk maybe they did it. We can't know from a 3 year old but you don't know otherwisl
Arcturus: accusing I mean
Neptune: certainly not enough to presocute
Mars: No I don't think they are guilty, and I think the case should've been thrown out by the court
Neptune: Earth 100%
Vartburg: The allegations are serious. And the implications on the defendants rights are severe by not having the "accuser" confront the defendant.
Kaer Trolde: From the confrontation clause perspective - who should be confronting whom here
Arcturus: In some ways from a legal perspective it doesn't even matter if they are guilty. There clearly wasn't enough evidence to convict here for it to even go to a jury.
Orilla: I just don't see how much good will come from cross examining a child in court
Kaer Trolde: the parents confront the child?>
Athos: the point the judge raises about asking the child about a blue or pink dress, and the child saying something to the effect of, 'well sometimes it's blue, but really pink' has several epistemological things going on - perhaps not relevant to whether the child is competent, but how competence is established
Beauclair: Should there ever be cases where you don't need a confronter
OP: Would the child testifying in the Swan case testifying made a difference though?
Mars: Prosecution confront the parents with the children
Orilla: Cross examining a child is probably not a very effective way to unpack the truth
Beauclair: the jury confronting the witness (child caretaker)
Earth: Agreed Jedha
Mars: OP, any decent defense attorney would have destroyed a 3 year old's story on cross
Phobos: A 3 yr old is not predisposed to lie. So their testimony should be taken into account. I think the problem is whether or not that "testimony" is the actual correct version of event since it came from that woman (italics omitted).
Vartburg: Then having the child there at all isnt a good way to unpack the truth
Orilla: To figure out whether the child's testimony is correct, you probably need a child specialist to ask the right questions
Mars: Agree with Blackeye but if we are using the child's testimony they should be crossed to demonstrate how flimsy it is in terms of veracity
Sirius B: Conradi shouldn't have
Sirius B: been operating a day-care-center
Phobos: this class is being recorded hmmmm.......
Felucia: what's the question
Earth: Can we stop the recording?
Felucia: that we're supposed to be answering
Phobos: speak out loud what we were just typing
Phobos: Records never die...
Venus: the recording is for people who are sick and have to provide proof to HLS of ailment for recording
Venus: so i am not sure why you all have an issue with recordings
Venus: it was outlined by DOS
Venus: in our emails before school started
Phobos: we know that
Phobos: people are obviously uncomfortable answering the question while it is being recorded
Proxima Centauri: Professor Nesson in a dark room definitely adds an element
Kaer Trolde: Zordon in power rangers element