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Iapetus: I think this should be done at every class in HLS
Altair: I really love the anonymous discussion forum. I think it's way more honest and makes for better discussion
Earth: This Anon thread is a wonderful tool and should be used schoolwide
Asuras: The anonymous forum is a unique way to make online class more interesting and engaging.
Naboo: I love the idea of connecting what is a current reality to everything, literally. I had a tough time understanding the connection to evidence though. I think you are right about your recognition of this new reality and just wish I understood the added connection to topics of evidence.
Iapetus: Yep. I would learn so much more and hear so many different views
Sullust: I agree that it's more fun to hear anonymous opinions
Montecalvo: "Yep. I would learn so much more and hear so many different views" - 100%.
Mustafar: I really like this dual zoom/anonymous format. I don't think we utilized it to its full potential today because we are still learning it, but as the semester progresses, I'm sure we'll get better
Iapetus: yep. the socratic method would actually work
Earth: After stepping on Egg shells through every class thus far this is very refreshing
Kerack: This is interesting. But I could see some bad things eventually happening...
Uranus: i like anonymous too but i still think there is value in people discussing their opinion and standing behind it in zoom on camera
Kagen: I think the thread discussions are interesting, but it would be useful to have a more directed topic and conversation. It seems that sometimes the threads discourse gets lost on how to proceed sometimes and it is difficult to reclaim focus
P3X-888: My thoughts: Aashiq is a hero
Sirius A: I love this space and think it fosters a great learning environment.
Yavin 4: I think this was very interesting and makes some convos more truthful as people don't feel uncomfortable to speak what they think
Sullust: the real mvp
Jupiter: Really loved the anonymous threads discussion. Everyone was far more open and willing to discuss different topics.
Hoags Object: I preferred conversing over thread because you avoid the problem of people talking over one another. And you can think a bit more carefully about what you're saying. It gets a little a little cluttered, but i think it's worth the benefit of having more ideas out there.
Yavin 4: Aashiq is a king
Starkiller Base: I wish we could have discussed Wigmore a bit more, but I did like everything else we did.
Triangulum: I like the anonymous discussion forum, and don't think we run the same risks as online anonymous forums
Mustafar: Its also interesting to see what people are willing to stand behind both anonymously and in person
Jupiter: 5 minute break sounds great
Utapau: Aashiq are you single
P3X-888: Water > Soda
Altair: I want every discussion to be anonymous- so much better than any other discussion I've had
Earth: All hail Aashiq
Triangulum: risk meaning things like 4chan where threads are used to spread hate
Iapetus: Yes but assuming no one here is 4chan it could foster honest discussion from people who would otherwise be scared to share their views
Mustafar: The entire Earth hails Aashiq
P3X-888: there will def be trolls
P3X-888: hopefully not as bad as 4chan
Yavin 4: I feel like fedsoc people often scared to speak their views. I wanna hear it even if anonymous
Iapetus: Yes in my classes the opinions were heavily bent one way. It can't be others didn't disagree and I would love to hear those opinions
Montecalvo: There are clear stats on this. Colleges only platform one viewpoint. Need to step outside the echo chamber.
Iapetus: Yes anonymity has risks, like everything else in life
Triangulum: Yeah there will be some trolling, but for the most part, I think people won't organize and spread toxic ideologies the same way they do online I meant
Iapetus: HLS is a joke in that sense
Mustafar: just don't fuck this up yall
Polaris: fuck it up if we want to fuck it up
Utapau: #twerkteam
Yavin 4: I wanna see this guy litty
P3X-888: you already are
Yavin 4: he would be fun in the club
Triangulum: I would not say colleges only platform one viewpoint; ture, there are far less conservatives in academia, but there is variance in views left of center in the U.S.
Altair: trying to rearrange my schedule to take more classes with Nesson
Yavin 4: colleges often are neoliberal
P3X-888: we love you nesson
Yavin 4: very rarely do they get actual radical left views
Utapau: where my communists at
Asuras: They are financially capitalist. Disagree that you rarely get radical left
P3X-888: I strongly disagree with that
Iapetus: lol triangulum yes there is variance among the far left tso that means we are ideologically diveres
Naboo: Thank you, it was a great class.
P3X-888: I feel like radical left views are more prominent than neoliberal views on campuses
Yavin 4: Harvard is a neoliberal institution. Where are the critical race theorists
Yavin 4: how many law and econ
Asuras: I think that has more to do with the intellectual paucity of CRT
Yavin 4: How many community lawyering
Iapetus: HLS should be ashamed of themselves for not promoting alterantive viewpoints
Yavin 4: Is it small because the system didn't allow it
Asuras: Every clinic is basically progressive
Yavin 4: What clinic wants to uproot capitalism
Iapetus: well they actually just started a federal courts clinic. that seems pretty middle of the road
Yavin 4: Capitalism is taken as the defacto
P3X-888: like 30% of your classmates believe in abolishing prisons
P3X-888: not just reforming them, abolishing them
Iapetus: Heck, there is even a religious liberty clinic
Earth: Looking forward to honest debate on here
Montecalvo: I just wish we could all get around and talk rationally about both sides of a political issue the way we have to do in the profession when for instance looking at a case and recognizing that our client has "bad facts." Our discourse would be so much richer.
Yavin 4: how many professors endorse abolishing prisons
Yavin 4: and how many people say these things in theory but don't push it forward
Iapetus: I'm not a big fan of prisons either but there has got to be a middle of the road
Asuras: Lower police funding/no police is a view held by less than 20% of all African Americans in this country
P3X-888: thank goodness they dont have the power to do that
Asuras: Yet it is held by a solid 50% of our class
Asuras: So that says a lot
Yavin 4: highly doubt tha
P3X-888: imagine if people who wanted to abolish prisons could push it forward
Iapetus: I remember in 1L crim some guy was charged with an assault and armed robbery and people were saying let him off and then someone embessled some money and ended up giving it all back but people said he should go for life lol
Asuras: https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx
P3X-888: as for the professors, HLS shouldn't hire professors who endorse nonsensical views just to say they're intellectual diverse. abolishing prisons isn't a serious proposal
Yavin 4: in classes who speaks up vs what majority of class actually think very different
P3X-888: that's true
P3X-888: neoliberalism is more common than radical leftism, but not more prominent, on campuses, imo
P3X-888: radicals speak their opinions more and louder
Yavin 4: we have vermule who wants Catholic nationalist state
Yavin 4: but no professor who wants to abolish prisons?
Yavin 4: how is abolishing prisons not serious
Asuras: See table for "preference for amount of time"
Triangulum: I feel like dismissing prison abolition completely as non-serious is a bit intellectually lazy. At the very least it can be seen as an aspirational statement
Yavin 4: the money you spend having a person locked up you can send them to harvard with that money
Iapetus: defund the police!!! lmao
P3X-888: I don't know if the latter is true, but the former was not hired because of his viewpoints
Triangulum: And you don't need to have prison to separate individuals who commit crimes from society at large for a time
Yavin 4: https://lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost#:~:text=It%20costs%20an%20average%20of,%2432%2C000%20or%20about%2058%20percent.
P3X-888: you can have prison or house arrest, there are only two options
Centaurus A: does nobody else thing Hung Jury is kind of funny
Yavin 4: 81,000 a year to keep someone in prison
P3X-888: you can call it what you want, but if you forcibly keep someone in a place that isn't their house, its a prison
Triangulum: Sure, but it's not the U.S. prison system if someone is not in a literal cage
P3X-888: great, talk about prison reform then
Asuras: I've worked in prisons, they're not cages. They could be more humane
Triangulum: I think abolition is often mistaken for the view that nothing should be done about crime
Iapetus: Prison reform, yes. Abolition? Hell no
P3X-888: It's not. It's just that abolition doesn't have any serious proposals to replace prisons
Asuras: Agreed. Abolition is often accompanied by a rescue fantasy
Iapetus: lashes. seriously
Iapetus: people can get punished and move on with their lives while also learning their lesson. Hear me out
Asuras: Ok, I'm willing to hear it.
Iapetus: Not taken from families serves as deterrent Can reform life immediately and not get stuck in prison with a bunch of people on the same boat
Earth: #silentmajoirty
P3X-888: im personally gonna issue a strong veto to the lashes idea but on that note ill see you all next class
Iapetus: thats just to start. For some reason we think its more humane to dump someone in prison for 6 years than to just give lashed and move on
Yavin 4: ex parte crow dog supreme court case shows an example of an Indigenous system where person who murdered someone else paid restitution to another's family. You indebt yourself to that family and help them out
Iapetus: Yeah see y'all next class
Yavin 4: there can be many alternatives
Yavin 4: but then the US said no that is not legitimate
Yavin 4: they must go to prison!
Asuras: What if they don't pay? And no, there are a variety of ways we punish in this country that don't involve prison
Yavin 4: the system is wrotten and new ones should come through
Asuras: The system is among the most fair in the world by any objective measure
P3X-888: thats a completely fantastical reality youre living in. if you want your family's murderer to be your indentured servant be my guest I suppose as long as you can keep them from hurting anyone else (which you can't)
Asuras: We do have more crime compared to other developed countries, which results in a higher lockup rate
Yavin 4: we have more crime because of how we define crime
Yavin 4: and how we police people
Asuras: I think that is really an ostrich fantasy
Asuras: Just take homicide
Asuras: There's only so far you can go in redefining homicide. Any by any objective measure, we have higher homicide rates in this country
Yavin 4: many murders and crime happen because of desperation, lack of economic opportunity, social structures and social safety nets. Perhaps take that money away from a corrupt system and put it into social workers and job works programs that can intervene and talk through to people and prevent things like that
Asuras: That's not an empirically backed up view. Again, it is something we would like to be the case that is not actually the case
Asuras: First, I dispute that killing arises because of economic desparation
Asuras: Crime rates went down during both the great depression and great recession
Asuras: (Violent and property)
Asuras: Hope to continue the conversation at a later time
Asuras: *desperation
Yavin 4: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2014/09/03/latinoamerica-menos-desigualdad-se-reduce-el-crimen