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Whirlpool: i think it's hard to reach ideal discourse when grades are hanging over your head. but i also think that too much discussion about grades just exacerbates that
Whirlpool: also love the personal statement idea. could even be fun to try to guess who wrote which one? maybe if people feel theirs are too personal they could sit out and be the guessers
Hoags Object: I think we all obviously have an incentive to say that we want high grades so I'm not 100% sure what the purpose of all the students discussing it on threads is
Vattweir: the most revolutionary thing would be having no grades at all
Procyon A: I'm very interested in the personal statement idea. Is the thought that we would transition away from a stressful, evaluative end of the class into a more meaningful, personal final discussion centered on our personal statements? I think that would be a really fitting way to end a class like this one, but it would probably only work if we got all Hs so that there was no evaluative aspect to the experience
Messier 83: I also think the idea of grades and assessment can hinder honesty by muddying incentives to discourse
Athos: i'd rather we resolve the real burning question i have, which is are we all getting h's
OP: Everyone in this room has already worked hard to be at HLS. And we worked hard to make it through 1L. At this point, any differentiation that we can get through grades is valueless (if the differentiation is even valid at all). We should reject the idea of a system that pits us against one another and instead just settle that we will get Hs, and move on to the actual part of this school that we all came here for and that we all paid for which is actual learning from peers, from our professors, and not paying for an expensive sorting mechanism
Hyperion: Why not just give everyone sitting in this room now H!
Milky Way: I feel like it would be fair if the all H's standard were applied to this class, and discussion hasn't really taken a turn for the worse either since the idea was raised. In fact, I would say the opposite has been true.
Ryloth: I like the personal statement idea in theory, but I am concerned about privacy as mine was quite personal. Also not comfortable being graded on something that I previously wrote
Mygeeto: Hadn't it been agreed that we'd all get H? What's the point now? Has professor Nesson backtracked?
Jupiter: also love the personal statement idea. mine would be extremely obvious lmao but would love to read/share
Hoags Object: Who gets DS's
Hyperion: @Mygeeto yes, we will all get Hs
Vattweir: please no personal statements - mine was trash
Foam: I appreciate the openness of Nesson regarding his personal grading policy. However, I more broadly wonder why the school is so secret about grading and the curve? Currently, I don't know what these letters mean and it is impossible to get any meaningful answers from professors or administration
Wolf 359: Honestly I would prefer an H, but at this point I don't think whether I get all Hs for the rest of my time at HLS or all Ps would have any impact on my future so I am indifferent
Athos: @Mygeeto, when was that discussed?
Mygeeto: But no personal statement, it's PERSONAL. Just a paper of up to 1200 words, as agreed before
Asuras: I believe there is promissory estoppel present in the fact that Prof. Nesson said he gave his class all H's last semester and I relied on that for this J-Term, just saying
Hoags Object: I'm trying to up my DS game, ya feel?
Luna: We would probably have to decide on the personal statement thing soon because don't we only have like 2 days of class left?
Athos: @Hoags Object, nobody
Vattweir: can we talk about the exxon protest at the paul weiss reception
Whirlpool: nobody needs a DS
Hyperion: Sweeeeppppp gets DS!!
Whirlpool: @ryloth why would be be graded ont hsoe?
Milky Way: I vote personal statement to professor, but summaries to peers
Blackeye: This is Fern speaking: when I was at HLS in the late 60's my class began a pass/fail movement to abolish grades and the faculty reluctantly agreed to a complicated form of it. It lasted for about 2 years. I'd be happy to describe it and the issues that arose from it.
Mygeeto: @asuras: agreed. I'm in this class for sweet pea and the H.
Asuras: Give Jason a DS tbh
Polaris: i dont want to discuss my personal statement at all. it was too personal. please dont make me do it
Ryloth: There was an news article yesterday about a guy wanting to get a trial by combat for custody of his kids - could we get graded by combat? washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2020/01/15/ex-wife-trial-by-combat/
Onderon: yes Fern!! interested to hear about that
Athos: @Fern, that sounds very interesting
Blackeye: I am pretty sure that Nesson never said he gave all H's last semester. He said he wondered whether he could do it.
Wolf 359: We are all able to get good jobs regardless, why is it that important?
Hyperion: @Fern, a big yes!!
Jupiter: rt jason gets the DS
Milky Way: @Asuras lmao
Hoags Object: Some of us are 2Ls still preparing to apply to clerkships so grades still matter :/
Mygeeto: @Fern: I want to hear about it, BUT I STILL WANT MY H!!!!
Asuras: This is why I was told in contracts to get it in clear writing, damn
Polaris: i dont even want the prof to read my persnoal statement
Whirlpool: @blackeye i would love that
Tollana: Would love to hear about Fern's experience!
Hyperion: and suddenly no one cares about sweetpppppppea now. Where is she?
Procyon A: @wolf, I think it's important if we're trying to end this class on a personal and not a competitive, evaluative note
Ryloth: There are some that are trying to graduate with Latin honors and the ability to get a good grade significantly helps that
Vattweir: we would love to hear about it Fern!
Whirlpool: jason is that you
Deimos: clerkship? You're lame AF
Asuras: Jason is all of us at our best
Tollana: Can someone explain the relevance of personal statements and how that affects grades?
Wolf 359: @Ryloth why though?
Procyon A: Jason is definitely posting about his DS on multiple accounts lmao
Ryloth: I don't like the talk about Jason as it is treading close to the territory from last time on Threads when we outed student
Hoags Object: I would be happy to write a new personal statement.. I don't feel like the one I wrote before represents me now
Polaris: say no to gunners
Asuras: Agreed with Ryloth, sorry for starting it, no I'm not Jason, just appreciate his contributions, honestly
Whirlpool: fuck latin honors tbh
Whirlpool: outing a student for what
Hagge: @Procyon A agreed, for sure
Whirlpool: fern's story is compelling, but i still want an H :/
Mygeeto: Agreed @Whirlpool: her story is good for why perhaps shouldn't happen for ALL courses. But not for THIS course, which is pretty peculiar.
Hagge: I think the floor should be an H, but there should still be a possibility of some to get a H*
Tollana: I understand the negatives about giving everyone in the law school the same grade. But why not give the advantage to just Nesson's students?
Hoags Object: This makes very little sense on the 10th class to tell us what counts for participation
Messier 83: participation as a personal impression also feels subjective and potentially arbitrary
Tollana: I don't like the idea of having to convince him why we deserve a grade
Luna: Why does what "I aspire to be" matter on grading what "I did"
Dathomir: Fern asking the QTNAs!
Ryloth: I think the participation which is the professor's impression should not be based on how much we spoke if there were those who seized control of the discussion too often
Whirlpool: im so confused are we supposed to write this statement about what we think we would do to deserve an H
Luna: Fern is channeling all of us right now
Messier 83: I also think there's value in participating through listening instead of merely speaking during discussions
Ryloth: Is this statement instead of the paper - or the topic of the paper, or something entirely separate?
Ryloth: @Messier 83, if anything "ideal discourse" is certainly not done with speakign
Ryloth: @Messier 83,100% agree with you
Wolf 359: What I learned in boating school is...
Whirlpool: i am so confused
Metinna: this is incredibly confusing
Polaris: confused af rn what is going on
Whirlpool: literally have no idea what is happening. is this a new idea?
Whirlpool: a new assignment?
Luna: So is the tldr of this, we are not getting H's and our final paper is how we've grown in this class from the person we were in our personal statements?
Luna: Oh jk justice is involved now
Metinna: Can we apply the seminar rule and give all Hs? It would really put people at ease and allow us to have a better conception of this class in the coming days and as a whole
Asuras: Can we do a simple yes/no Q&A session, none of this really complex stuff, to talk about what in the world we have to do? It's gotten more confusing instead of less
Messier 83: I liked an open-ended paper topic more, not sure if my personal statement lends well to this kind of reflection
Whirlpool: id prefer an open ended final paper topic please god
Dathomir: wheww this is going. off. the. rails.
Asuras: This is a disaster
Asuras: I've learned that if I listen to others I don't participate enough so my grade will be lower
Puck: We should take a vote on all Hs
Polaris: lets chill for a minute
Dathomir: shoulda woulda coulda talked about cannabis. But y'all opened the Pandora/Nesson box now!
Arcturus: facts dawg
Arcturus: i think this is a pointless discussion
Asuras: Why can't H be the baseline, and anyone who clearly doesn't take it seriously gets a P
Arcturus: i'm sure that we'll all do fine
Asuras: Just give us the freaking baseline
Neptune: we've really made things worse for ourselves by having this discussion. we didn't take this class with the expectation of all getting H's -- can we just move on
Asuras: So we can all relax and know that as long as we try to engage with this very vague topic and class we'll get fair treatment in that regard
Polaris: yo guys chill out
Dathomir: @Neptune ^YUP
Ryloth: An H should be a floor with the option of an H*
Arcturus: in my opinion
Arcturus: just write a good paper put a good faith effort
Arcturus: and I'm sure everyone will be fine
Ryloth: No Othon, please don't add work
Arcturus: this discussion is becoming a drag and is unnecessary
Asuras: I haven't shared your optimism since at least 2016 but ok
Ryloth: i think we need another break
Dathomir: lol @Ryloth
Wolf 359: Fern is our greatest asset and must be protected at all costs
Arcturus: I think this entire thread should be deleted
Luna: @ryloth i need a drink after that discussion
Dathomir: @Wolf *baby yoda reaccs*
Arcturus: it feels like we're begging for H's
Ryloth: @Ryloth instead of talking about weed now we can use some
Arcturus: Nesson is well aware of how experimental this workshop is and will take that into consideration when he considers who deserves an H (perhaps he'll find that everyone does)
Luna: Quotes self :o
Blackeye: what is "QTNAS"
Deimos: tbh, my social anxiety is so bad i have to pop a klonopin just so i can tolerate group discussion, no way do i want to speak out. Am i pretty much F'd when it comes to participation?
Blackeye: I fell bad that this discussion caused so much worry. What I heard Charlie ssay m, i n sum, was :
Blackeye: 1) If you attend class and are invested in the discussions, you will have done fine as to class participation. You do not need yo have spoken out in every class.
Blackeye: 2) you may write anything you choose in response to the origonal prompt: what did you learn in this class. Your essay may be a personal exploration or an analysis of the justice issues, etc. IT should not focus primarily on doctirne sin ce that was not te subject of the class.
Blackeye: 3) Charlie ended up giving all Hs in his seminar but he did not decide to do so in advance. He did so after he read the students' papers and considered their clss participation. He will do the same here. He will read your papers and consider whether you came to class and engaged in the experience. If all of your papers are outstanding, he will not consider himself to be bound by the dean's curve. If eveyonbe deserves an H, everyone will get one.
Blackeye: 4) C and I have observed all of your wonderful lively engagement in class. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT re: class participation. The only people who need to worry about class participation are those who registered for the class and chose not to attend on a regular basis.
Polaris: petition to dean manning to grant fern a tenured position at HLS asap
Hoags Object: Fern 2020
Whirlpool: thank you fern
Luna: Fern deserves the DS
Messier 83: Fern, thank you so much for clarifying!
Whirlpool: fern 4 president
Asuras: Also QTNAs are "Questions that need answering" Fern, and you ask all of them
Whirlpool: @hoags twins
Asuras: Fern 2020-2100
Arcturus: It scares the life out of me that there are so many Celtic fans in this classrooms
Jupiter: fern pls be my new mom
Wolf 359: Feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeern
Milky Way: Thank you, Fern!
Vattweir: petition to have Nesson as dean of hls
Jupiter: gotta use that buy-ahead feature!!
Jupiter: u are RIGHT FERN
Arcturus: I wanna smoke a blunt with Nesson BAD
Callisto: King Saul fell on his sword when it all went wrong And Joseph's brothers sold him down the river for a song And Sonny Liston rubbed some tiger balm into his glove Some things you do for money and some you do for love, love, love Raskolnikov felt sick, but he couldn't say why When he saw his face reflected in his victim's twinkling eye Some things you'll do for money and some you'll do for fun But the things you do for love are going to come back to you one by one Love, love is going to lead you by the hand Into a white and soundless place Now we see things as in a mirror, dimly Then we shall see each other face to face And way out in Seattle, young Kurt Cobain Snuck out to the greenhouse, put a bullet in his brain Snakes in the grass beneath our feet, rain in the clouds above Some moments last forever, but some flare out with love, love, love
Blackeye: Thank you for pointing me to a beautiful song!
Luyten 726-8B: No problem, glad you like it! Do you know of the band Mountain Goats? All of their songs are great!
Blackeye: They were new to me. Now, I'm a fan.
Uranus: Great to hear! Their songs were featured on a show called Moral Orel that aired 10-15 years ago, it's a bit irrevent and can be offensive to some at times, but ultimately the show does develop a well-nuanced critique of religion/society, I definitely recommend it, it's on Hulu
Uranus: Io Perry is a good singer kind of like Mountain Goats, who's music is also on the show