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Saturn: Where are the teaching assistants? I miss them...
Blackeye: I thought it was absolutely ridiculous that someone was allowed to speak out of turn just because he felt like it, when plenty of people had been raising their hands for a long time and respectfully remained silent when the discussion was closed
Armeria: Can we have a day where we discuss prison abolition? Serious question - as someone who thinks we can use reform, but still sees a very important place for prosecutors and prisons for violent crimes, I'd love the chance to dive deeper
Blackeye: also, the point made was ridiculous as well. george was clearly trying to humanize the victim
Geonosis: I think that "someone" made a great contribution.
Sun: good talk today. I felt that the second half of the class discussion happened in a more thoughtful way, found myself thinking over some points I didn't expect to.
Saturn: Fisrt they took away sweetpea, now they take away our TAs, who is next?
Sun: remember the teachings of earth. not a fan of calling out individuals
Io: I thought the initial discussion about process re: sexual assault conversation was a waste of time. While I really appreciate Professor Nesson's approach of stepping back and delegating authority to us, sometimes we can get too lost in process and fail to sufficiently move forward
Armeria: @Blackeye might as well just say it to his face if you feel that way. His comment was certainly fine, and thinking about the victims when we talk about crime is something that does seem to be forgotten in this class
Fox Hollow: The clip from George Fisher was a perfect stimulus for the discussion of prosecutorial discretion
Klucz: Thank you, Geonosis. This is Othon here, and whoever wants to criticize me can do it to my face. Thank you.
Fox Hollow: @blackeye: very inappropriate for calling out classmate
Sun: fantastic to see snacks in class. now, only request is that they be HEALTHY (or a mix) of healthy/non healthy
Hyperion: I'd like to use this space to show why discreetly leaving the room when one is uncomfortable is not always possible
Blackeye: @geonosis so could have the many others who had their hands raised but acted respectfully
P3X-888: i really enjoyed this conversation. i wish people would be more respectful on here, especially because i think that we have a lot of good discussion in person while remaining respectful.
Sun: really enjoying watching the charlie fern dynamic
Earth: I'm very conflicted about today. On the one hand, I appreciated the different perspectives on the prosecutor's issue, there is something nagging about the fact that we avoided talking further about an issue because it felt uncomfortable. If we are to be engaging in ideal discourse, wouldn't it be better if we actually go about addressing those issues that are particularly difficult, instead of backing off? I think the better approach would be, instead, to talk about some of the ground rules a bit clearer in terms of how we approach those topics, rather than shut them off completely.
Blackeye: @sun this is not about that individual in particular but the way the discussion is run. That incident could have been prevented
Rakverelin: hey, raising hands is important, conformity is important, your feelings are important.
Klucz: Othon here again: I have 15 years of work as a prosecutor and I have often seen the victims forgotten, again and again. I am sorry if others were bothered, and I certainly did not speak out of turn, but asked to be recognized about a point that I felt had been left unsaid. Thank you once again for your attention.
Geonosis: Why dont we debate an issue that ACTUALLY divides the class? People generally agree about bringing an unjust prosecution. But, I sense there is massive division on bringing purportedly JUST prosecutions (i.e. a serial killer, a violent rapist). I think that conversation would be great and provocative (in a good way).
Dorian: why does anyone care so much that someone spoke out of turn it's literally not a big deal it was like 20 seconds and it's been over for like an hour
Rakverelin: hi, i just want to make this chat all about me and how upset i get
Hosnian Prime: it was a good point too
Roggeveen: @rakverelin well you're certainly doing a good job at it. who hurt you?
Armeria: Rakverelin be trolling
Bespin: I really appreciate Fern
Lantea: speaking out of turn is a form entitlement.
Geonosis: To those who disagree with Othon, perhaps engage the point rather than criticize the person? Maybe you'll actually change some minds.
OP: whose mans is rakverelin
Fox Hollow: It's important for folks to engage with the content of what has been said in class rather than worry about who has and hasn't been called on. Why is your point so special that it must be heard? There is always plenty of food for thought on the table. If you have an idea that you feel compelled to share and you haven't been called on, write it down and save it for later.
Wolf 359: Bring the TAs and Sweetpea back <3 and love Fern's even keel in the discussions. @Sun great point, also not a fan of call-outs. But in principle. it *is* disrespectful to the group, and frankly smacks of privilege, to presume that whatever you have to say is sooo important it trumps other voices in the room. Otherwise, the loudest man in the room always wins (often literally). I don't care if it was a brilliant screed; have some patience.
Roggeveen: it wasn't about what he SAID, it was how he said it... is this not a class about ideal discourse
Io: @Klucz I support you Othon! Unfortunately there are quite a few here (and throughout the U.S. who are fixated on "fixing the system" and will refuse to consider anything that doesn't fall right into that narrative. I applaud your willingness to stand for what you believe in publicly, even if at times I disagree with it
Sun: @wolf u right
Rigel: @Earth, you bring up a really good point. But I think the discussion was paused not because it was an uncomfortable one, but because the space had already been tainted by Friday's approach. It seemed that a safe space surrounding that particular topic would be kind of impossible to create
Lantea: Agree with @wolf 359
Saturn: whose womans is OP?
Sun: but im motioning to move discussion about a person in this class off this thread. we can set norms about how we want to engage with each other generally tho
Mercury: Getting to reddit levels of trolling on here
Armeria: I believe Othon was called on? Either way, people forget to raise their hands. Get over it and lay off.
Mandalore: Othon, I like the point you made and do think it was something that hadn't been discussed. I also agree that there were other people raising their hands who did not get to speak because Nesson wanted to move on and had plenty of time to raise your hand earlier in the discussion.
Sirius B: this is a pivot, but i want to return to the idea that we are all "hired guns" with no moral culpability for our actions. i don't believe in the idea of good or bad people so im not trying to call anyone evil, but i think the mindset that lawyers are not morally culpable because they are just doing their job is a really dangerous one. that logic has been used to hold up oppressive systems throughout history
Hosnian Prime: we love you Othon
Callisto: agreed. this is getting super toxic with people calling out Othon for "taking up space" when there are gunners in here who have talked non-stop and taken up wayyy more space than the 10 seconds he did
Neptune: why are we so obsessed with "safe." we should be safe from obviously bigoted attacks, etc. sure, but too often people wanna be safe from ideas or a topic of discussion. terrible way to approach academic experiences.
Armeria: @Othon much love
Utapau: Good discussion today. A lot of the points reminded me of the episode that John Oliver did on prosecutors and how they can misuse power (using Harry Connick Sr. as a case study). Worth a watch if people have not seen it yet
Procyon A: @Klucz I completely agree. We often forget there are victims at the other end of these crimes. People choose to see prosecutors as individuals who only imprison individuals for heinous crimes. We forget that they are also prosecuting human trafficking, child abuse, sexual assault, etc.
DQar: I agree with the sentiment that we should aim to be more respectful of one another. If nothing else, I think everyone is giving their best effort to really grapple with these issues and present informed opinions. Of course, one can disagree with the content of another's idea. However, it just seems lazy and disingenuous to engage in ad hominem attacks and make caricatures out of one another--simply to win the argument. I hope we can move towards more respectful conversation in order to facilitate better ideas and encourage everyone to speak.
Triangulum: Yo... if you think it's okay to call out individual students in an individual space, you're a bully. Did you not pass the third grade?
Triangulum: *anonymous
Armeria: @Triangulum - couldn't agree more. Y'all bullying Othon because he didn't raise his hand. Not nice
Andromeda: Othon here once again: of course I raised my hand, and the professor recognized me. Maybe you couldn't see it from your place, but I did.
Andromeda: No idea why the pseudonym was changed. Thank you once again. On the other hand, I have decided not to participate in threads anymore, since it has become a toxic environment. Othon.
Sunflower: Can I just say I love you Fern! <3
Callisto: Can we please have Fern come back. She was such a positive voice in guiding the discussion and keeping the class going whenever Nesson started to get off track. We need more of her, not less. One idiot torching her online like an 8th grader shouldn't result in losing an effective and constructive part of this class, one of the only people who actually provided some semblance of structure in our discussions.
Celestis: All my love to Fern.
Hoth: I really hope Fern will reconsider, esp. given the lack of any actual substantive complaints against her and the role she's played in class; her absence would be a real loss.
Tollana: Please reconsider Fern!!! We love you and you are amazing. It really ruined my evening to see that email
Ahch-To: Agreed with the rest, Fern come back!
Procyon A: I think the threads should maybe come to an end because we seem to be incapable of maintaining a respectful space. I would have hoped that in an anonymous space we would still maintain the values of respecting our professors, their spouses and our classmates.
Tollana: @Procyon A I agree with your expectations regarding civility but think it would be a shame to end the use of Threads due to that. Perhaps we can all agree to establish clear guidelines on what we will and won't tolerate as a group within the forum?
Venus: Fern, please do come back!!!
Milky Way: @Lothal Re: Thread 5. Were you raised by animals? Did your parents or guardians not teach you proper etiquette and respect? It is only proper to show respect to your elders. Fern decided to join the class without any obligation to do so, and you come here and spew forth your insults. Shame on you! At least have the courage to put your name behind your statement and say it with your chest. You hind behind an anonymous forum and choose to talk shit from behind the mask of a keyboard and screen. You are an uncharitable fucker and you should be ashamed of yourself. If HLS is supposed to provide future leaders, and you are an example of such a leader, then I fear for the future of this country. Please banish yourself to the seventh circle of hell, arsehole!
Milky Way: Also, I truly hope that Professor Nesson and the TAs were lying when they said this thread was anonymous. I hope they find out who you are and give you an LP. That would teach you a sweet lesson, fool!
Rigel: I was so disheartened to see that email from Fern this afternoon. I don't know why the individuals choosing to use this forum continue to make these cruel, personal attacks, but I would urge you to shift your perspective toward the very real consequences of these words. In an effort to achieve some sort of cathartic relief, you have managed to erode discussions in this unique space, wasted class time with the subsequent sessions we've spent reacting to such manufactured conflicts, and have personally offended classmates/faculty.
Rigel: I really hope we can clear this up tomorrow and encourage Fern to come back for the remaining classes. She has been such an asset to all of our discussions.
Pinwheel: @Saturn: First they took away sweetpea, and I did not speak up, for I was not a dog. Then they took away our TAs, and I did not speak up, for I was not a TA. Then they took away Fern, and I did not speak up, because I was not a goddess. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to speak for me (you all would've caved anyways).
Hochebuz: Fern is one of the best contributors to the class. After this class I honestly wish every class professor had their partner present in class to call them out when they are going off track or ranting.
Io: I hope Fern realizes that even the turd that posted that disgusting comment likely meant it as a skewed joke and I highly doubt it was reflective at all of even a single dissenter view.
Blackeye: I apologize. I feel as if in my annoyance at how the discussion was run, I lashed out at othon. I do not feel that othon is the problem, but rather the haphazard way discussions have been run.
Blackeye: I am ashamed to realize that I am part of the problem that has driven Fern away. Fern, we all love you and appreciate your presence in the class.
Blackeye: @Lothal, why... why have you done this
Dorian: Fern did not deserve that. She is accommodating and resourceful. I think that unless Lothal can come up with an exact reason for why the class is better without Fern, she should continue to stick around. It's unfortunate that someone would be such a fuck about a person who's just trying to help her husband navigate an experiential class. Disgusting.
Rakverelin: fuck gunners tho for real.
Iapetus: @rakverelin are you saying the the person who was rude to fern was a gunner?
Winneburg: Yes, I think no one in the class disagrees with the proposition that Fern is one of the greatest assets of the class. Event the person who said it, I am sure, meant it as a joke, given the context of the sweetpea allergy. I am so sad that i will not see the dynamic of Charlie and Fern's relationship in class continue. They were a great duo. Fern we all love you please come back
Earth: @Winneburg Second that so hard
Hosnian Prime: don't let one person ruin this, this class is a democracy of all of us not a dictatorship of 1
Io: Allowing a troll comment by one anonymous fool to destroy an invaluable dynamic of the class really defeats the purpose of the pseudonymous place
P3X-888: i really hope that whoever made that comment will own up to fern about it. you don't have to reveal yourself to the class but you owe it to fern to apologize at least. that wasn't helpful, wasn't useful, wasn't good. it was only mean. and completely unprovoked. and it made me feel completely disheartened about our class and our capacity for meaningful, positive discussion. you hurt someone's feelings and you should apologize. that's it.
Callisto: can whoever made the post just fess up in threads at least, and apologize
Betelgeuse: If fern was here this conversation might've ended 15 minutes ago
Hoags Object: Not referring to the comment about Fern which I feel was targeted and reprehensible. I wonder why it is so difficult for so many to see past what they refer to as rude and disrespectful on an anonymous forum. Yes, ideally we should ALWAYS communicate respectfully, but at times, especially when no one is being personally targeted, the tone and way of speaking contains value and communicative effect regarding the idea itself. Are we perhaps too sensitive and pampered to be able to engage in discourse about ideas when the tone or manner does not fully appeal to us? Of course, I reiterate that we should always try to be respectful. But I question whether some of us are being too sensitive and closed to methods of communication that we do not view as ideal
Betelgeuse: thanks dude in red
Vega: @calisto: That would be Lothal, back in Feedback 5.
Mercury: we back in this
Mars: in Russia you dont give feedback, feedback gives you
Tethys: @Nesson GIven the discussion on grades I am curious to know, is it true that you have the highest GPA ever at Harvard Law School?
Armeria: Sooooooooooo.... H's for everyone?
OP: I really liked today's class w/r/t the prison abolition discussion. W/r/t grades: I'd love an H tysm
Fox Hollow: Great discussion on punitive versus restorative justice. We could have kept it going even longer in the full group. As in the past, small to large group worked well
Mars: If we want to fundamentally dismantle the system, and we do, we should give everyone Hs
Mercury: +1 to @Tethys, spill the tea on the gpa
P3X-888: i love the idea of sharing our personal statements with nesson or the class generally! i think it's honestly a very sweet idea and would love to learn more about everyone
P3X-888: also i believe the highest GPA since frankfurter
Athos: Today's prison abolition discussions were great. Every time we break into smaller groups, I think we find common understanding. This was yet another highlight of the class for me. But then I've gotta be real, the next hour or so seems to lack any direction. Weed, weld, donziger, grades, tribe, etc. That discourse didn't feel ideal and it didnt seem to have a purpose.
Luyten 726-8A: personal statements idea is nice
Naboo: ya, beginning with small group discussions I think humanizes the conversation and makes the larger group discussion more thoughtful and respectful
Io: I loved the class today, particularly cuz we were able to cover quite a few different important subjects. I found the smaller group discussion to be highly productive and even opened my mind to concede some things that I had not previously thought re: abolition. I wish though that the same could be said for some of those heavily advocating for abolition in that I don't feel that they seriously entertained anything that I or others had to say in challenging some of their thoughts
Neptune: we should keep doing small group discussions. i feel much more comfortable sharing my views and speaking with people in the context of small groups rather than to the whole class
Callisto: I think Hs for everyone would actually be a fair way to end an experimental class like this one. It must be next to impossible to assess participation in a setting like this and causing a little mischief by bucking the grade curve would be a good way to recognize that we've all given this experiment our honest effort and all grown from it
Sun: I like the idea of sharing personal statements with Nesson, not sure about sharing with the whole class because they can be, as you might guess, pretty personal :)
Utapau: Fantastic conversation on prison abolition. Shout outs to everyone in my group who helped me better understand the topic and guided me through my questions. Still missing Fern and Sweetpea
Luyten 726-8A: also, I think it would be nice to do more activities, like when we acted as a jury. could break up the sameness of just discussing. could act as judges sentencing, or other sorts of activities meant to provoke discussion
Callisto: Also class today was great, we should definitely do more group discussions on interesting topics
Callisto: also please convince fern to come back
Tethys: Agree with @athos. I don't like the portions where you just talk without opening it up. I would prefer at least asking for thoughts before moving on to an almost completely unrelated topic.
Sirius B: for those interested in learning more about restorative justice, sujatha baliga just won a macarthur genius grant for her restorative justice work. here is her personal website with some of her talks:; here is her RJ project at Impact Justice:; and here is a toolkit that project developed that answers a lot of common questions about restorative justice:
Luyten 726-8A: @sun maybe they could be anonymized?
Ryloth: Professor Nesson, could you please explain more why you think law professors acting as partial advocates in a public forum is a bad idea—especially considering it is what they do in court rooms. Professorial impartiality seems to be more of an illusion than anything, even in the classroom.
Betelgeuse: I think today's discussion was very informative. I now have a better understanding of abolition. I don't know if I'd be super happy about sharing my statement, because I feel like I wrote that for admissions and it had some personal info in it. I'd respectfully ask that we move away from impeachment as I feel like we've discussed it enough.
Utapau: I would be more than happy to share personal statements with Nesson. I think it would give him an even deeper perspective of who we are as people
Armeria: Professor - are you more a Bubblegum Kush, or Afghan AK kinda guy?
Fox Hollow: I'd be interested to keep discussing restorative justice, especially how widely we define the person/people to be restored.
Luyten 726-8A: @callisto I agree, everyone who has shown up to class and made an honest effort which i think is everyone) deserves an H
Sun: I was surprised that more conversations about prison abolition hadn't been happening at this school before. In some of the circles I'm in, it seems like a major thing being discussed. Curious to know for the folks who hadn't been exposed to it before -- is that because you hadn't sought it out, didn't know who to talk to, or weren't super interested?
Hoth: I also loved small group discussions where I felt a lot more comfortable speaking. I'm also in favour of giving everyone the same grade, as I believe that would take away distracting incentives and encourage us to be more honest in our participation and engagement
Earth: I appreciated today's class. For one, it was one of the few occasions I've had to really learn about the prison abolition issue in a classroom setting, and one where I found myself really connecting on many different levels, in both the premises and potentially where we want to go. From my own perspective, these are the kinds of discussion that such an experimental class should be engaged in. I'd love some more back-and-forth on the cannabis issue--certainly would love to hear about how others think about it/propositions for how reform would be done there.
Neptune: fair question. we must get nesson's opinions on weed varieties because he is clearly a connoisseur
Rigil Kentaurus: great discussion today and a true return to form (at least w/r/t the first 3 days of class). I also think a look at personal statements could be a revealing look at whether and how HLS as an institution shapes lawyers, their values, interests, and behaviors. If it does (or if we choose to see career choice as an indication of that influence), can we say HLS was a force for good? *shrugs* Very excited to see Fern tomorrow!!
Barnards Star: Also in favor of Hs for everyone. Everyone is special and loved! Everyone deserves H! H for High! H for Home! H for Hey, there, I love you, Charlie Nesson!!!
P3X-888: as someone who's bad at grades pls god gimme an H
Io: I also loved the digression into Professor Nesson's personal experience regarding grading. It is an extremely rare and honest peek into the mysterious cloud of the grading process that I have never been able to get anywhere else.
Armeria: I will exchange a pack of my Weed Gummybears in exchange for an H*, Professor
Messier 83: My personal statement is probably why I got waitlisted lmfao
Sun: I would love to see how people's personal statements have matched up with their career paths
Rigel: I appreciate the way our group conducted our discussion regarding prison abolitionism. I acknowledge that a lot of the more progressive policies, most of which I subscribe to, can come across as radical – especially when first introduced. I appreciated how the more moderate and conservative participants engaged by asking questions and finding common ground. This strategy seemed to produce the “ideal discourse” we have been working toward this semester.
Mercury: I really like the small group discussions. I feel I get to learn so much about all of the individuals in class, and it gives a forum to exchange/workshop ideas before sharing with the larger group. Also, Fern's absence is truly felt. At the very least, Nesson could break for questions every five/ten minutes or so. It makes the classroom experience feel almost useless when we sit and listen for what can feel like an eternity.
Knotweed Meadow: I'd be open to sharing my personal statement with Professor Nesson; I'd also be open to sharing it with the class if there's an option to do so anonymously
Tethys: Do you have a prescription or go to a recreational dispensary? Hate having to go all the way to Brookline, hoping for openings in Cambridge soon.
Sun: @lo YES, professors are so shady about grades but I love that Nesson is unapologetically candid and straightforward
Luyten 726-8A: I also think giving us all H's would really lead to ideal discourse in that we are not participating in it in an attempt to get a good grade but truly and honestly in an attempt to create ideal discourse
Messier 83: I had that sweet sweet 3.9/176 and still waitlisted /r/lawschooladmissions
P3X-888: check out ganja gala for delivery ;))))))
Tigg: Nesson, do you think there is an actual difference in the effects of sativa strains vs indica strains? I've never seen a truly double blind controlled study, and would love to hear your opinion
Callisto: I think it's super interesting to compare how well our discussions went today to the recent problems we've been having--looks like our discussion yesterday really helped us move forward productively
Mercury: say lesssss
Ahch-To: I agree that actually reducing grade pressure gets folks to be more willing to talk when ready and the like, unironically
Armeria: @Nesson - I'm sure you were not too shocked to hear that the stoners were a little slow to apply the breaks in the study you cited
Ahch-To: Also think we should do pair discussions at some point, I think it would be really interesting to get down to the individual level and really discuss an issue with someone without any group that could be more pressuring if you're int he minority in it
Earth: @Luyten 726-8A I like the idea of sharing personal statements with the professor--maybe we can write summaries of what we wrote and post in threads as opposed to sharing the whole thing with each other if we felt uncomfortable about doing so?
DQar: While I think it is fantastic that the prison abolition discussions went so well, I wonder what about this topic made it more amenable to productive discourse than previous discussions. Clearly the topic is quite controversial and invokes a lot of emotion amongst individuals, yet we seemed to handle it well. If it has to do with how we conducted the discourse, it may be worth considering those factors and trying to apply them to future discussions.
Utapau: Re: grades, I think giving people an H is a good idea. The way you described picking grades and it giving you a bar graph on what's "recommended" gives more credence that grades are just generally very arbitrary. if the purpose of the class is to have ideal discourse, which it seems all of us have had in a combination of threads, small groups and large group discussion, it seems weird to grade people lower than others. Almost implies that their participation in these topics was not as important or fruitful as others and I don't agree with that implication
Neptune: we should also take an anonymous poll of political views. very liberal, liberal, moderate, conservative, very conservative
Athos: Radical experiment: H's for all AND no paper? Could facilitate even more ideal discourse.
Neptune: @Athos: dont push it bro
OP: I would love to maybe send an old personal statement and then write a personal statement that I would have sent today (perhaps considering what I've learned in class)-- would have been different for sure
Luyten 726-8A: athos don't push it
Ryloth: @Athos agreed
Rigil Kentaurus: you're pushing it Athos lol
Luyten 726-8A: we'll lose ground
Ahch-To: Also a fan of a poll
Utapau: @athos really causing mischief out here
Luyten 726-8A: gdi athos
Ryloth: Okay maybe reduce word count of paper - can't believe it's longer than the exam we would have had to take
Callisto: on a more serious note, I do think it would be really interesting in an ideal discourse sense to life the grade pressure and see how the course evolves from there
OP: bagels or "bagels" ;)
Sun: bagelsaurus is the goat
Dagobah: bagelsaurus is mediocre and is only even serviceable because it's in cambridge
Sun: requesting lox
Tethys: black sheep is pretty good
Armeria: I'd bet $1M @Dagobah is from New York
P3X-888: @dagobah HOW DARE U
Luyten 726-8A: is bagelsaurus the one i had to wait 20 min in line for and they were out of all bagels but plain
Ryloth: black sheep is the best
Rhea: This is the best class ever!!! Bagels AND all Hs!
Zavada: Blacksheep sucks....
Zavada: Bagelsaurus tastewise is pretty good, but the service is so horrendous
Zavada: Can a trustfund baby at HLS buy Bagelsaurus and revamp the service :P
Rhea: Let's all agree that bagel sucks. Any Canadian pita is better than the best of bagels.
Carreras: You know there’s Canadian bagels right?
Carreras: Oops didn’t mean to respond to my own question lol